Help! Group photo advise

[Paulo]

I have many weaknesses but group photos (25 or more people) are my worst. Can anyone give me some general guidelines so I can improve. I was requested to take this image, kinda on the spot, in a church gym, and just feel AWFUL about this shot. There were almost 65-70 kids. Because of the size of this group, I would have prefered to shoot down from the stage(or any higher elevated angle) towards the group but they lined them up this way. And I didn't bring a ladder.

Camera: D1X
ISO: 800
Aperture: F5.6
Shutter: 1/20
Flash: yes (SB-80DX) D-TTL
WB: Tungsten

[Paulo]

*bump*

[Dsheree]

who is in charge? YOU. You line them up the way you want.
Bottom line with groups this large is as long as you can see thier face it's a good shot.

[HeatherLou]

Hey Paulo, all things considered, this is pretty good! It would have been much better with a group that big to have been able to shoot down, but thats not what you had to work with. The only thing I see for you to watch out for is the height of the people, (you have some shorter kids in the second row) Also, you could have has some on knees and bottoms in the front two rows, but being that there in formal wear, thats not an option in this pic. The only other thing to watch for it people hiding. With a group this big *try* to get the back persons head between the shoulders of the two infront of them. (Does that make sense?) All in all, not to shabby!


Oh and if the gym had chairs, you could have used those for the girls and if that is a stage behind them, you coulda used that for the guys to sit on to raise them up in the back!

[Paulo]

Thank you Dawn & Heather. I see what you both mean. I feel awful for dropping the ball on this one. I was in the church shooting the confirmation event with no problems. In the past, these were done in the church right after the mass. Those worked out fine because I get to arrange the students and I stagger them over a series of stair-steps. When they brought me over to the gym, they were already lined. Just didn't have the tenacity to tell the father, "Uh, I know you're all lined up and ready but you need to move..."
And I was slow to react/adjust because they did have chairs that the first row could have sat on. Combined with having the last row sitting on the stage, I could have came out with a much better capture.

Regarding settings, was F5.6 too shalow for this size of a group? I was shooting close to 30 feet away. I was using a 24mm F2.8 prime lens.

[andyz]

I think it can look better, but you'll never get all the faces. At least they were lined so that they could mostly see you, and you them. With better cropping, perhaps some color work and maybe even cloning the drapes in the back it will improve. Again, that is ascetics, not real content though.

[Paulo]

Thanks Andy. I haven't tried to do any post-work on this yet but I like what you did there.

I'll have to bite the bullet on this shot. However, it's a reoccuring event that the church contracted me to do annually. I'll get my next opportunity in April, May and Sept next year and I just want to make I sure I don't make the same mistake(s). I'll be sure to load a ladder in my vehicle so I'll have it at hand if this situation comes up again.

[jeffreyluce]

I would offer that half of the people are holding their hands together in front, and the other half have hands down by their sides.

Also, I know you were on the spot arranging... on the far left, you only have 2 rows, on the far right - only one row. You could have either distributed people out so there were 3 rows all the way across, or squenched them in more, then you could have gotten closer.

You could always hold the camera over you head and take the shot, depending how tall you are, your mileage will vary.

[billash]

I think you pretty much did as well as you could under the circumstances. I agree with all the comments, but with this many people, I'd have some of the shorter fellas take a knee in the front (formal wear or not), thus reducing the width of the group.
You pretty much always try for a triangle shape with groups.....whether a large group or a group of three people.....with the tallest in the middle and feathering out on the sides. And make sure that everyone lines up filling the gaps....no heads behind other heads. I always tell everyone "if you can't see me clearly, my camera can't see you clearly." But recognize, as someone mentioned, that some people try to hide.
One other thing.....when I don't have a ladder for a large group, I find a chair and stand on it. Even a couple of feet elevated helps gain a better angle.
A few thoughts from a veteran wedding photographer.

[CobyPhoto]

Ok Paulo,

I know we have already talked, but seeing the photo gives me other things to consider. So here goes:

First of all, even though the image is fair, it isn't one that I would consider selling a client. End of story. While it is a difficult group to begin with, the fact still stands, offering up a photo like this could cost you future work.

Your main problem here is, you were attempting to shoot a group of 60-70 people with on camera flash. One at that. You need at least a couple of good strobes to give you decent depth of field with a group. That 1/20th of a second is way too slow. People can't stand still and your camera shake affect the final image.

There are some good ideas posted...YOU are in charge and you have to give people that impression or they will just flat ignore you. (They don't care if you get paid for doing the job and getting it correct...)

When posing a group of individuals like this, I start by telling them to line up by height...tallest to shortest. Gives you the best start on posing them...tallest on back row working forward.

Also, you want to TRY (I said try, I know it isn't always possible) to keep the group from "growing" too far either way. The wider the group, the smaller the faces. Cause they are going to want "standard" size prints from these images, most likely. Offering up a long 'pano' type print probably isn't what they want, as they will require custom framing. (big $$) Thou, keep in mind, you can get 10"x 20" frames pretty easy, now a days, thou bigger prints = more cost.

Ask the church if they have risers. Most do, for choir etc. Just have them set it them up prior to the event so you can utilize them the day of. Still bring the ladder. A little height will help. If there are no risers, look for chairs, sit the front row and if there are enough, double stack chairs for the second row etc. You can ask the guys to kneel if you have too, just don't do it to the girls.

If you can, ask them to close the stage curtains behind them. That will really make it look better, and pull up the basketball goal, if possible. All things they would never consider as they aren't photographers. They will, more than likely be glad to do it.

Not etched in stone, but I would try to get camera settings in the range of:

ISO 400-800
F 8.0 to 11 (more depth of field in this case is better)
Shutter Speed minimum of 1/60th - preferably 1/125

If I were shooting it, I would have three 500 WS Strobes minimum; one on each side toward the end of the group, feathered in to the middle and one just to the middle and above the photographer. Adjust them for even light across the whole area that the group is posed. (This will take some practise. You will have to move the lights and adjust the power setting to get it exactly where you want.) I would use umbrellas, 32" to 60" on the strobes, too.

All in all, groups of this size are an animal all their own. So it just takes practise, and learn from your errors.

Get ahold of me next time you have to do this. Maybe I can go with you and show you a few of the things that I mentioned here.

CJ

[CobyPhoto]

and OH YEA...

One more IMPORTANT thing:

That floor! Is it that white? If so, you are going to get alot of bounce from the floor on the strobes! You will have to try it and adjust to keep from blowing out the front row and all those white dresses!

I noticed that immediately, but forgot to mention it.

CJ

[Paulo]

Originally Posted by CobyPhoto

Ok Paulo,

I know we have already talked, but seeing the photo gives me other things to consider. So here goes:

First of all, even though the image is fair, it isn't one that I would consider selling a client. End of story. While it is a difficult group to begin with, the fact still stands, offering up a photo like this could cost you future work.

Your main problem here is, you were attempting to shoot a group of 60-70 people with on camera flash. One at that. You need at least a couple of good strobes to give you decent depth of field with a group. That 1/20th of a second is way too slow. People can't stand still and your camera shake affect the final image.

There are some good ideas posted...YOU are in charge and you have to give people that impression or they will just flat ignore you. (They don't care if you get paid for doing the job and getting it correct...)

When posing a group of individuals like this, I start by telling them to line up by height...tallest to shortest. Gives you the best start on posing them...tallest on back row working forward.

Also, you want to TRY (I said try, I know it isn't always possible) to keep the group from "growing" too far either way. The wider the group, the smaller the faces. Cause they are going to want "standard" size prints from these images, most likely. Offering up a long 'pano' type print probably isn't what they want, as they will require custom framing. (big $$) Thou, keep in mind, you can get 10"x 20" frames pretty easy, now a days, thou bigger prints = more cost.

Ask the church if they have risers. Most do, for choir etc. Just have them set it them up prior to the event so you can utilize them the day of. Still bring the ladder. A little height will help. If there are no risers, look for chairs, sit the front row and if there are enough, double stack chairs for the second row etc. You can ask the guys to kneel if you have too, just don't do it to the girls.

If you can, ask them to close the stage curtains behind them. That will really make it look better, and pull up the basketball goal, if possible. All things they would never consider as they aren't photographers. They will, more than likely be glad to do it.

Not etched in stone, but I would try to get camera settings in the range of:

ISO 400-800
F 8.0 to 11 (more depth of field in this case is better)
Shutter Speed minimum of 1/60th - preferably 1/125

If I were shooting it, I would have three 500 WS Strobes minimum; one on each side toward the end of the group, feathered in to the middle and one just to the middle and above the photographer. Adjust them for even light across the whole area that the group is posed. (This will take some practise. You will have to move the lights and adjust the power setting to get it exactly where you want.) I would use umbrellas, 32" to 60" on the strobes, too.

All in all, groups of this size are an animal all their own. So it just takes practise, and learn from your errors.

Get ahold of me next time you have to do this. Maybe I can go with you and show you a few of the things that I mentioned here.

CJ

Thanks Coby! No, images they contracted me for (individual Confirmation captures) came out fine. This was going in the church bulletin and a free copy to the RCIA director. But it still sucks because, whoever sees this, it'll just reflect badly on me.
But I'll be a heck of a lot more prepared the next time the situation comes up.

[CaptainTom]

I'll just add that the closer you can get the better off you will be. Even if you have to put them into four rows the faces will be bigger and more recognizable.

One more wild idea. shoot them close and do a panorama. If you can get them to stand perfectly still for 3 seconds ???

Live and Learn.

[Paulo]

Thanks, Tom.