Paper talk (again!)

[photexas]

Red river paper in dallas has a god selection. You can order a sample kit

[Murph]

Question: Is 300 gsm paper better than the 190 gsm that I use currently, and will it mess up my 2400? I mean will it make the printer not want to use the 190 gsm stuff? Again I am using Hahnemuehle, and Moab papers.

[jeffkohn]

Well, "better" is subjective. The 300gsm is thicker so to me that makes it a bit nicer. In the case of Hahnemuehle Photo Rag, the 308 version seems to have a tiny bit more texture than the 190, which to me is a good thing. Since it's thicker and stiffer, I think the cut sheets work a bit better for mounting behind a mat with a tape hinges.

The Epson 2400 doesn't have any problem with paper of this weight although you do have to use the rear feed.

[Murph]

Thanks. I have had problems with the single sheet feeder on my 2400 feeding the 205 gsm Kayenta for some reason. I like both papers quite well, so I think I will try some of the thicker paper.

[Murph]

You are right on the money with that. I now brush each sheet before it goes in the printer. The Hahnemuhle Photo rag gives me better colors and it seems better blacks than the Moab Entrada. Also B&H seems to have pretty much stopped carrying Moab Entrada paper.

Originally Posted by johnastovall

I like Hanhmuehl Photo Rag for my Carbon ink B&W printing but be warned. You need to get draftsman's brush and brush the sheets before using. Otherwise it can flake.

[venchka]

Has anyone used the Harmom papers? They are the parent of Ilford. Here's a link to a discussion of one of their new papers.

Link to Harman Inkjet Gloss FB AL

[jeffkohn]

Originally Posted by venchka

Has anyone used the Harmom papers? They are the parent of Ilford. Here's a link to a discussion of one of their new papers.

Link to Harman Inkjet Gloss FB AL

I just got a sample pack, but haven't had a chance to print on it. I have a feeling it's going to be a bit smoothier and glossier than I prefer, but we'll see. If I get a chance to do some test prints tomorrow I'll post back with my impressions.

[Murph]

Has anyone tried the new Crane offerings? Or the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl?
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...on-fiber.shtml

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...rs/h-fap.shtml

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...Innova-F.shtml

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/en/1...yta-paper.html

[jeffkohn]

You know, the proliferation of papers from some of these companies is starting to get really confusing. Hahnemuhle has Fine Art Pearl, Photo Rag Pearl, and Fine Art Baryta. Good luck figuring out from the descriptions how any of them actually differ from each other. Innova is also bad about having several papers with similar-sounding names. Then there's the fact that some of the papers are sold under different names depending on which country you live it, so you have to be careful when reading online opinions from users outside the US.

[jeffkohn]

I had a chance to evaluate some paper samples today. In addition to the Harman FB Gloss sample pack, I also had InkjetArt's "Fiber Gloss" sample pack which has samples of a variety of papers in them. Here are my thoughts on the ones I tested today.

In all cases I downloaded the ICC from the manufacturer and used it with their recommended settings. This isn't really ideal, since not all ICC's are created equal and you end up comparing profiles as much as paper; but I don't have enough time or paper to create custom profiles of each of these.

Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl
Note, this is not the same as the new Photo Rag Pearl that is just coming onto the market. Fine Art Pearl was one of the first generations of f-type papers and has been around for a while. I wasn't terribly impressed with this one. The surface is pretty smooth but has that pearlescent look to it, where instead of mirror glare you get diffused highlights. Reminds me a little too much of regular luster photo papers, albeit thicker/heavier and a little smoother. DMAX was good, but shadows were a bit murky.

Moab Colorado Fiber Gloss
This paper is quite smooth, no real texture, and I'd say it has a semi-gloss surface which I like because it gives you a nice DMAX but not as much reflections as a true glossy paper. Unfortunately the print was lacking in fine details. Comparing it to the FAP or Harman, it almost looks like I forgot to sharpen because the Moab print is noticeably softer looking. (but I didn't forget, all images were printed through QImage with the exact same sharpening and interpolation settings).

Harman FB Gloss
I have to say I'm really impressed with the image quality of this test print. The DMAX is noticeably better than the others, at the same time shadow detail is excellent, nothing at all murky about the shadow tones on the print. The print has noticeably more depth than the others, almost 3d-like. Sharpness and fine detail reproduction is also excellent. The downside is glare; this paper is truly glossy, noticeably more so than any of the other fiber papers I've tested. I think glare would be a real issue unless your prints are going to be displayed under controlled lighting. One other minor criticism, this is supposed to be a 310gsm paper, but it sure doesn't feel like it. It actually seems to be slightly thinner than some 285gsm papers I've used, which makes me wonder if the baryta layer adds weight without giving this paper the thickness you'd expect for its weight.

I have to wonder how much of the 'wow' factor with the Harman print is due to the baryta layer, or just the fact that it's glossier. High-gloss prints tend to have better DMAX and more depth, but the downside is the reflective glare. I hope it's the baryta, as other manufacturers will soon be shipping their own baryta layers. If one of them has less gloss but still maintains the excellent image quality of the Harman paper, it will definitely be worth considering.

[venchka]

Interesting Jeff. Here is the mini-review from the Large Format Forum I linked to earlier:

Digital Silver Gelatin has arrived...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My friend Jim Collum called me a few days ago and said, "Jack, you need to try this new paper now!"

The paper is the new Harman Inkjet "Gloss FB AL." So I went to my local shop, picked up a box yesterday and set to profiling it for my Epson 3800.

The first thing you notice is the paper's surface -- identical to air-dried fiber-base silver, with a slight egg-shell finish and soft gloss. Sweet. Next thing you notice is this paper even smells like traditional silver paper. (Seriously!) Finally, it has a slightly warm white base.

This paper is thick and also swells when the ink hits it, so I needed to set my paper thickness up a notch (4 on the 3800 driver) and platten gap to "wide" to avoid head-strikes on the wet surface. Once all that was settled I printed the profiling targets, let it dry down over-night and built the profile this morning.

I am now sitting here admiring my standard large paper evaluation print -- a color test image (available for download at digital outback photo), and a long tonal range B&W image, doubled up and printed together on a single 13x19 sheet.

As for B&W, in the black patches I can distinguish patch 4 (4/4/4 rgb) from 0 and 6, and in the white patches I can distinguish 253 from 255 and 252. (I can sense 254 is different from the surrounds, but can't really "see" it as its own tone.) Anyway, this is incredible tonal range, and of course is all present in the B&W image -- pure, deep blacks with outstanding shadow detail all the way through to delicately detailed highlights. Amazing.

As for color, I was frankly surprised -- it is excellent too. There is a specific image of strawberries in the color test print that reproduce to the most delicious I've seen from any paper yet All other colors are exceptionally well represented too, including a blue sky gradient, foliage yellows and greens and a difficult metallic bronze.

Now for the better news: There is NO gloss differential and NO visible metamerism anywhere on the print!

Lastly, the "AL" in the paper name stands for "alumina," a reference to the fact there is aluminum in the substrate -- ostensibly it's there to emulate the slight metallic "glow" present in a silver-gelatin print. And yes, I saved the best news for last, they accomplished that feat. There is indeed a subtle metallic glow that adds traditional silver depth to the final print.

This is amazing stuff folks; I have found my paper.

More info here: http://www.harman-inkjet.com/pressroom/article.asp?n=63


Cheers,
__________________
Jack Flesher

Mr. Flesher obviously has a background in wet printing.

[Murph]

Thanks to all, I am switching from Moab Entrada to the Hahnemuehl Photo rag, it just looks better to me.

[venchka]

Murph, did you try any of the new Harman papers? Not saying they are better/worse than your choice. I haven't used either. Just curious if you have used any of the Harman papers.

[Murph]

Haven't found any locally in San Antonio, and I need to order some from B&H. But no, I sure haven't used any yet.

Originally Posted by venchka

Murph, did you try any of the new harman papers? Not saying they are better/worse than your choice. I haven't used either. Just curious if you have used any of the Harman papers.

[venchka]

Houston Camera Co-op had some 2-3 months ago if you're over this way.