Paper talk (again!)

[jeffkohn]

I'm still trying to figure out what y'all don't like about Moab Entrada Rag Natural?

It's nice, although when I tried it on my Epson 2400 the Moab-supplied profile wasn't any good. I just think Hahn Photo Rag is nicer. HPR has better gamut than any other rag paper I've tested, it's just a top-notch paper (albeit pricey).

I also took a look at Moab's versions of the "fiber gloss" style of papers when they came out (I think they're called Sateen or something like that). Didn't care for the surface, had to much of that "eggshell" texture that I don't care for. The Photo Rag Baryta paper is really nice for a fiber-gloss paper. It's basically the same paper base as the regular matte Photo Rag, but with a semi-gloss coating. DMAX and gamut are impressive.

[venchka]

Jeff,

Not being a technical person, I am at a loss to understand DMAX or gamut. I know what looks good to me. I know when photos of my grandkids look like my grandkids. That's plenty good enough for me.

In a perfect world I would assemble a room full of printers and paper. I would print until I dropped. I would then pick what I thought was the best combination of printer and paper. In the meantime, I'm content with a happy random accident: My ancient printer that I bought a long time ago because "I might like to print photos sometime" and a box of paper a friend of mine gave me because it wouldn't feed through his HP printer.

[venchka]

I wasted my last drop of ink and my last ounce of patience last night on 2 more sheets of Red River paper. No more! $60 worth of fire starter for the winter.

[Murph]

I still like the Moab, I just haven't purchased any since they were bought out by Legion paper. I don't know if there were any quality changes by Legion or if they have maintained QC. I want to try some of the Photo Rag Baryta and the new Bamboo paper just to see how it looks.

Originally Posted by venchka

I nominate this thread for Longest Lived.

I'm still trying to figure out what y'all don't like about Moab Entrada Rag Natural?

For the record, I bought a full set of Red river samples in Letter and 13"x19". I really wanted to like this paper. Deal with local people. Keep some of my money in Texas. Etc.

So far my opinion is: A total waste of money and ink. I've used several different papers from the letter size box. Ugh. Yuck. Way too dark. Colors that go black instead of fading to darker versions of the same color. Side by side with Entrada rag: No comparison. Now I'm trying to decide what I can do with two boxes of ink jet paper. It's too stiff for Kleenex.

[venchka]

What the heck is so hard about making inkjet paper that will work in other printers? All of the paper only companies can do it. Can Epson do it? Maybe not.

Condensed version:
Paper: Epson Ultra Premium Luster
Printer: HP Officejet 7310
Ink: HP Vivera color cart. and HP Vivera Photo Gray
Print software: Lightroom
Images: 16 bit grayscale scans of 6x7 original negatives
Result: Pooh-Pooh brown prints regardless of which switches I picked in the printer driver and Lightroom.

Suffice to say, Epson P.M.O. When I buy a new printer, Epson will be at the bottom of my list.

Thanks for letting me get that out of my system.

Thus concludes the rant for today.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Cheers!

Wayne

[timbertoes]

Originally Posted by Murph

and the new Bamboo paper just to see how it looks.

Cheech and Chong still in business there, Ya ?

[rockpics]

Printers can be some of the most frustrating devices on earth, but don't let your current experience keep you from Epson in the future. I can vouch for the fact that Epson papers in Epson printers work very well, and also third party papers in Epson printers work very well. I guess Epson hasn't profiled it's papers for printers other than its own.

[J Eddington]

I wish I understood what you guys were talking about. I just got a new epson R2880 and am struggling to get it to print and match what I see on the screen. My lab prints come back looking like my calibrated screen. Now to get my printer to do it.

[venchka]

What made the horrible Epson paper prints from the HP printer more annoying was that I finally achieved a "look" on my monitor that I have been trying to get since I purchased Lightroom when it was first released.

Pooh-Pooh ugly brown aside, the prints from the HP printer EXACTLY matched what I saw on the monitor. Not darker in the shadows or lighter in the highlights. An exact match. That hasn't happened on my old Epson or HP printer before. I do feel like I have finally made some real progress. It's only taken close to two years.

I hope it doesn't take another two years to produce a black and white and gray print on the HP printer. I think the old Epson 1280 may be relegated to printing labels for my prints and grocery lists. I can live with Whole Plate size prints from the HP 7310.

[venchka]

Janice,

It's all smoke and mirrors and wizards and alchemy. I haven't a clue either. And I have tried. I have the empty ink carts. and empty paper boxes to prove it. Inkjet printing is a Black Art. Actually, I wish it were a Black Art. Then I could make black and white and gray photos. I am still at the Manure Purple Brown Ugly Not Art stage.

Good luck!

[J Eddington]

Originally Posted by venchka

Janice,

It's all smoke and mirrors and wizards and alchemy. I haven't a clue either. And I have tried. I have the empty ink carts. and empty paper boxes to prove it. Inkjet printing is a Black Art. Actually, I wish it were a Black Art. Then I could make black and white and gray photos. I am still at the Manure Purple Brown Ugly Not Art stage.

Good luck!

I think i may take the easy way out over expose for self printing and then the original for everything else. I just have to figure out the right overexposure and make an action for it. This is why I have never printed at home!

[rockpics]

Janice and Wayne, here's what I do and it seems to work. If you are already doing these things, I can't help.

1. Make sure you use the correct paper profile for the printer you are using. The other day I fired up the Epson 2200 and printed an image on Epson Premium Luster paper. The print was very disappointing. Why? I had used the Premium Luster profile for the Epson 3800 printer. I didn't run this experiment on purpose. I simply forgot to select the correct profile before I printed. Since the printers use different inks, my print from the 2200 looked horrible with the 3800 paper profile. Profiles for Epson papers come with the printer driver, but for all other papers, you have to download them from the paper manufacturer's web site. The profiles have arcane designations like Pro38 PLPP. That's the premium luster profile for the Epson 3800.

2. Remember that if you let Photoshop or other software manage the colors,
you have to turn off color management by the printer. To turn off color management in the Epson 3800 I have to go into the printer driver and click
"properties", then "custom" then "advanced". Then under "Printer Color Management" I mark "Off (no color management)".

3. The last stumbling block is rendering intent. Papers can't exactly replicate the color intensity you see on the monitor. The printer makes a guess at how to best apply the colors to resemble the monitor based on what you tell it to do. That is "rendering intent". In Photoshop to see how different rendering intents will affect the colors, open your photo file in photoshop, go to view-proof setup -custom. Select the paper profile of the paper you are using and see what different rendering intents do to the colors. Choose the one you like best.

[venchka]

Jill,

I have done all of that with Lightroom. I selected the HP profile for Photo Gray in Lightroom. Admitedly, the HP paper selections don't include Epson papers. So I tried the closest fit from the HP papers and I tried "Other photo Paper". Both times: Puke Brown. I also went so far as to set Lightroom to "Mananged by printer" and set the HP driver to "Grayscale" and "Black cartridge only". What did I get? The same Puke Brown that I had gotten in the previous 6 prints.

OH, and I just remembered. The last time I printed a black and white photo from Lightroom to the HP printer I used the Photo Gray profile and HP paper. What did I get? Black. Gray. White. Just the way the silver on the negative said I should get.

I swear I think it's a conspiracy.

[rockpics]

I know about printers and frustration. I hate wasting paper and ink.

[venchka]

Tell me about it. Folks told me to stick to the same brand paper as the printer maker. But no. I had to go and buy the cheaper Epson paper from Wolf Camera in my backyard rather than drive clear across Houston to get the more expensive HP paper at Office Depot. Dumb! I will be buying HP paper online and have it dropped at my door.

Take that Epson and Office Depot!

Feels good to vent on my keyboard sometimes!