Critique Forum By Category?

[Ricks Canvas]

Interesting dilemma... How does one critique others work... and how does one get a useful critique of his work.... Seems to me it is almost, and I say almost, impossible to just ask someone to critique a photo. Photo work, like art work is too subjective... IE I hate Picasso's art work. To me it is archaic and a child could paint his pictures. Sorta like the guy who throws buckets of paint at a canvas and calls it art. Now Rembrandt was an artist, and a photographer of his time. He captured lighting nuances, and had talent. If he where alive today and was painting subjects of our time, his art would still look great... just a different subject than the nobles of his time... but the art itself would look great. And this is the dilemma of anyone critiquing others work... they may hate that style, subject, or technique, while another may think it is the best picture they have ever seen, because it is so personal in its interpretation.

What I think would be the best of both worlds in this forum would be to set up a critique section/forum, and then segregate it into categories/threads based solely on a specific technique that someone is trying to achieve and or learn. Then the critique would be more technical than subjective, and useful.
IE :
Critique Forum
_________________
category: Lighting... Subcategories: Portrait , Barn Doors, Strobe, High Sync, Hyper-sync, Weddings, Sports,... etc...

category : Composition... Subcategories : Portrait, Children, Babies, Weddings, Food, Interiors, Sport, Animals...etc....

category : Time Lapse... Subcategories : City, Sunsets, Clouds, Flowers, Water, Traffic, People, Construction......etc...

category : Post Processing.... Subcategories : HDR, Softening, Layering,.... etc...

Ok .. so now I am trying to learn barn door lighting techniques. And for some reason, I am just not getting it. I throw a photo or two in the Lighting category, subcategory ; barn doors... explain about what I am doing or trying to achieve. Then the critique is more specifically narrowed down to what the individual is trying to achieve. Maybe his barn door technique is fine, and it is a composition problem. " Hey your barn door lighting is fine, but might I suggest that it is a composition problem, and you might want to move it over to help with composition category"....

So there is a scenario that is more on the technical, and not so much subjective... and the person is asking for help via a specific category... not just random..what do you think of my photo... then the critique is all about someplace the artist was not interested in, and it's perceived as rude. Maybe combine with Tips/Techniques Forum?????

[ronocnikral]

First off, I think it would be a nice courtesy if you mention this is an off shoot of a another thread, espeically when just copying and pasting.

Second, I see little problem with the way the showcase is setup. what you are proposing increases work for those that manage the forums.

Third, the true problem is the discussion going on in the other thread and/or the expertise either isn't on this forum or those who know don't spend the time to give feedback (for whatever reason). I know a good photographer who knows more than I ever will about photography who won't give feedback over the internet (probably b/c of what is being discussed in the other thread). He also has other opinions on many of the photogs here....

I've found many of the people I look up to here rarely post anything here anymore.

[Ricks Canvas]

Originally Posted by ronocnikral

First off, I think it would be a nice courtesy if you mention this is an off shoot of a another thread, especially when just copying and pasting.

Second, I see little problem with the way the showcase is setup. what you are proposing increases work for those that manage the forums.

Third, the true problem is the discussion going on in the other thread and/or the expertise either isn't on this forum or those who know don't spend the time to give feedback (for whatever reason). I know a good photographer who knows more than I ever will about photography who won't give feedback over the internet (probably b/c of what is being discussed in the other thread). He also has other opinions on many of the photogs here....

I've found many of the people I look up to here rarely post anything here anymore.

Well your first concern... I did not mean to offend you by moving my post to the section where I thought the site administrator would see it... IE Site Info... where if we have a suggestion, it should be in this section. The move was because I was not sure that anyone with any authority to implement it would see it where it was in just a general discussion. Next time I will mention it.

Your second concern too much work... Well it is just a suggestion, but my feeling is do you want to stand out as a forum... or do you want a forum that is just, "ho hum, people just yacking"... it takes work to stand out. And it is a good way to get real photo help on a specific problem. Not just some subjective critique.

Your third .. Is the very problem which I was suggesting to fix. By being more technical on a specific situation, more professionals might come here to not only learn a new technique, but to share their experience on a technique they have learned. And getting them back into participation in the forum. Which I believe the owner of the forum would want, as it would be a forum that is more viable than just yack, yack, and would bring in the advertising dollars. Is that not the goal of the owner, to bring in income? I too would not make a general critique of some one's photo, who asks a generic.. "what do you think"... well what do I think about what? The lighting, composition, saturation, focus, depth of field, post processing you did, the subject, the theme??? The only way I would critique it would be to say something positive if I liked the photo... hence the whole reason behind the beginning of this thread in the general discussion.

[ronocnikral]

I don't pretend to know what drives the owner to keep this place open. It's none of my business frankly. If they're making money, more power to them, I personally click through mileage malls when ordering things. Sorry!

This place used to be fun when it was more focused to a geographic region. My take is, the expertise here is not quite what other forums have. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good photogs, but the really good ones, a lot move on or just check in every now and then. Organize however you want, but until people stop lynching others, who are trying to help, for not saying this correctly, or not saying that, or their syntax is off, there is little point to it.

Certainly, a worthy suggestion, but it's still a lot of work for not fixing the REAL problem.

[ggeen]

What I think would be the best of both worlds in this forum would be to set up a critique section/forum, and then segregate it into categories/threads based solely on a specific technique that someone is trying to achieve and or learn. Then the critique would be more technical than subjective, and useful.

You have a worthwhile suggestion here but may I ask, "what is your goal?" Knowing that, does this suggestion help reach this goal.

This is how another forum I know does it and I thought it was a good method. There have a "Share your Shot" section and then a "Critiques" section. Each section has subsections like landscape, people, etc. Honestly, they don't get any better responses than here. Some of the critiques here are far better.

Some people are teachers/coaches and most are not.

[Ricks Canvas]

Originally Posted by ronocnikral

Certainly, a worthy suggestion, but it's still a lot of work for not fixing the REAL problem.

Thank You.. I do think it is a viable solution to improve the forum, and actually get a technical review, help, and critique more specifically towards something I might need or am looking for help with, and others might need help. You state it is too much work.... well that is for the site owner and/or site administrator to decided whether the work is too much or if the benefits to the members and the forum outweighs that effort.

I know it won't be a 100% cure for the discussion that was in the forum Open Talk thread, "So just how thick is your skin?" But it is a good start, and one that might get the professional photographer to get back involved, and some real technical discussions on subject/track.

You also stated that it will not solve the REAL problem..... Well don't just leave it there... What do you think the real problem is, and
how would you solve it in a constructive way? I would like to hear your suggestion or ideas to improve the forum into a viable place that people would get back involved with.

[Ricks Canvas]

Originally Posted by ggeen

You have a worthwhile suggestion here but may I ask, "what is your goal?" Knowing that, does this suggestion help reach this goal.

My goal would be that people in the forum looking for a critique of their photo, can get a more specific critique or help of their photo. Not just a subjective response from somebody. But a targeted technical response for what the person is looking for. Like Brewercm stated over in the original thread, "I've asked for a critique in a certain area like lighting or exposure and get nothing other than about the posing. That was fine and I appreciated it but I still don't have an answer to my original request."

The goal would be to solve that and people getting hurt feelings because the critique was off in left field about something that was not what the photographer wanted a critique on. When that forum is set up ... explain that it is for critiquing, helping with that specific area of the photo. Technically Targeted Critiquing. <<<< Hey that could be the name of the forum... lol Another aspect of the goal would be to get or invite professionals who have mastered that specific technique to: 1. Moderate that specific section... IE Barn doors... someone who readily uses barn doors to moderate that section... 2. Invite professionals to set-up sticky posts...How to Do this technique... in that specific section...again...IE :"How to do barn doors."

That in a nut shell is the idea for that forum section.... along with what I said above top.

[ggeen]

Originally Posted by Ricks Canvas

My goal would be that people in the forum looking for a critique of their photo, can get a more specific critique or help of their photo. Not just a subjective response from somebody. But a targeted technical response for what the person is looking for. Like Brewercm stated over in the original thread, "I've asked for a critique in a certain area like lighting or exposure and get nothing other than about the posing. That was fine and I appreciated it but I still don't have an answer to my original request."

The goal would be to solve that and people getting hurt feelings because the critique was off in left field about something that was not what the photographer wanted a critique on. When that forum is set up ... explain that it is for critiquing, helping with that specific area of the photo. Technically Targeted Critiquing. <<<< Hey that could be the name of the forum... lol Another aspect of the goal would be to get or invite professionals who have mastered that specific technique to: 1. Moderate that specific section... IE Barn doors... someone who readily uses barn doors to moderate that section... 2. Invite professionals to set-up sticky posts...How to Do this technique... in that specific section...again...IE :"How to do barn doors."

That in a nut shell is the idea for that forum section.... along with what I said above top.

Thank you for stating your goal so eloquently. I think it is a worthy goal. I do not, however, think it is attainable. I may be wrong so I do not mean to discourage you for pursuing this goal. Make your case firmly and eloquently as you did here and maybe you will convince Able a separate critique section is the right course of action.

[wclavey]

I think one of the interesting premises in this conversation, Rick, is that you can attract the professional photographers to do critiques and disseminate knowledge. I'm not the originator of this question... many others can take credit for that... but what is in it for the professional photographer to do that? I am absolutley not a professional photographer - - I'm not even sure I am a decent photographer - - but it takes a lot of time to do a good critique, especially if someone has asked for response to a specific aspect of a photo, and it takes even more time to write a good how-to article that really conveys any useful information.

As a professional in another field, I know that I am not keen to spend my time giving away free advice. I review journal articles for people as part of a professional review program, I speak at conferences on specific topics where I am an acknowledged expert, but if someone came up to me and said that they had some particular problem and wanted my professional advice, I would give them a business card. And when I was active in the lecture circuit, I gave away a lot of business cards for exactly that reason.

Perhaps photographers are more altruistic than strategy consultants, but I'm not sure why that would be true. I do not see it as some higher calling... So I'm not sure that simply attracting the professionals to the site is going to improve the quality or frequency of critiques. Perhaps, if there were professionals who offered critiques of an image for $25, submit payment through Paypal, you might get professionals who were willing to invest the time to provide a good critique.

But none of this goes to say that I think you cannot get good critical comments on the site. I think that there are a number of people who have given me excellent feedback on images, even if there were things in it I did not want to hear. And as a few of you can attest to, I have often taken those comments and, as quickly as possible, replaced the picture in my gallery that was critiqued.

And I will submit that the problem with this system of passive critique requests on the forum is that it requires several things to be "aligned" - - (1) the image has to be one that the viewer is interested in enough to look at - - there are numerous gallery sub forums that I never even open, and I'm sure the same is true for other people, (2) if a special question is asked, like: just talk about the lighting, it has to be one that the viewer is knowledgeable about, (3) the timing has to be such that the viewer has the time to comment at the time the poster is asking... many of these gallery posts lose traffic after a few days, and (4) the viewer has to be willing to respond in such a way so as not to upset the poster of all the over-the-shoulder readers of the thread. If all these things align, then you might actually get good online reviews or critiques. But generally, I think that any one pf those not happening will make it so that a photo with a critique requested may go un-critiqued in one of the galleries. But the viewer only has to get shouted at a few times (figuratively) before he is going to stop commenting.

All that being said, I think the critique request system in the galleries works about as well as it can. If you want a real critique from a real professional, then there are lot of "names" who will review an image or a portfolio for a very reasonable price - - and will focus the content of the critique on whatever aspect of the image or use of the image you want. But for a free service, I think this forum's system works fine.

And if all else fails, ask Kevin - - he will give a short, honest and generally right-on-the-money assessment. But you may need thick skin...

[Ricks Canvas]

Wesley,

For the most part I agree with what you said... Why would a professional want to share his hard earned knowledge on a technique he has learned? Why would he give out his trade secrets, that keeps him ahead of the competition? Why make it harder in competing for the almighty buck? Not all professional feel that way. Some are retired and wanting to pass on what they have learned. Others don't feel it a threat to share knowledge. And not all want to be paid, for what they learned themselves from others who taught them for free. And any technique can be learned simply by Googling it enough and practice what is there.

I think we/me have put too much emphasis on professionals. Anyone here in this forum who has learned a skill and knows what they are talking about can give constructive feedback. I don't consider myself a professional by any means, but I have learned and I am learning new techniques all the time, and I am more than willing to share with others what I have learned. Is that not what this forum is all about?

My main goal with this idea...

Emphasis added >>>>> Was to get a more: Technically Targeted, By Category, Technique, Specific, Help, critique for what the individual was looking for. Not just a random critique of the photo, which was not wanted by the one requesting the critique. <<<<<<<<

I think a lot more people with experience in that subject would be willing to participate if they knew what was wanted vs trying to read the mind of what the person wanted or was looking to be critiqued/helped on.

As far as getting professionals to submit, "How To" information and or "Techniques" here on the forum... that is easy. And could be combined with the critique specific category... IE: Barn Doors Mfg. with Barn Door Critique category.

All Able has to do is approach the manufactures of the equipment and give them a forum category with admin rights to that category. Invite them to put in "How To" and "Techniques" for their products. Give them the space for free... any manufacture who would not want to network and promote his product this way is either stupid or lazy. You think Pocket Wizard, or Cannon, or other would not jump at the chance??? Maybe, and maybe not. But I bet with a forum of 32,478 Members, Threads: 154,646, and Posts: 1,366,929 all discussing photography would make it a pretty good economic move.

Able could also work it into more income for him by giving the manufacture the space for free for "How To & Techniques", but any advertisement banners, sales promos, etc.. they pay for.

I am a can do type of person, you keep telling me why it won't work, and I will keep telling you why it will. I think the biggest disservice, or killer of any forum is negative feedback. As an example, in just my post here, not one responder said why it would work, what they liked about the idea, or how they would supplement it with, this or that, to make the idea better. All any of the responders did was say it was a worthwhile suggestion, but then proceeded to say why it would not work.

Give me feedback on why it would work, or how to improve the idea. It is easy and lazy to just be negative and tear down something... To me that is the biggest killer of any forum, or project that someone is trying to incorporate.

And none of us, including me knows what the end result would be unless it was tried... and that will be up to Able, I guess to decide.
LOL... with all of the typing I have done to suggest and or explain this idea, I could have set up the critique by specific category already and have it up and running to see it in action...

[KJ Smith]

Critiquing a photo is completely different from discussing technique.

How to discussions can be found all over the place.

Many folks on this site offer "how to" help.

[Ricks Canvas]

Kevin..
Yes... "Critiquing a photo is completely different from discussing technique."
But I am suggesting "critiquing a photo by a specific technique that someone wants help with" not just a random critique, and as it applies to what was being discussed in the thread "Just how thinned skinned are you".

[KJ Smith]

The problem is there is always way to much talk about how to critique and very little actual critique.

[ronocnikral]

i believe it is possible to get feedback based on a certain technique. I do it all the time. As someone who originates a thread, I believe it is their responsibility to lead the discussion.

Again, there is nothing to be gained from giving someone an honest critique, other than being shunned by the community.