Second Shooter Etiquette

[todd_a]

The discussions on here have been very informative lately! I like to see discussions that are useful for others that may not want to be the one to ask, or just plain not know what to ask about subjects. So, for the benefit of anyone out there that might be interested, outside the areas of minimal equipment needed , and levels of photographic ability,can we discuss Second Shooter Etiquette? This could be from the point of view of Experienced Primary Photographers and experienced second shooters.

Maybe use this outline or just go crazy with whatever thoughts pop in your head. This is all coming from someone that has zero experience as a second shooter or a tag-along, so if it is stupid in it's current form, change it up! :)

Second Shooter definition:
How exactly do you define a second shooter? I've seen paid and non-paid opportunities. How is non-paid different from a Tag-Along position? What do you expect differently between the paid and unpaid positions?

Second Shooter responsibilities:
Does the second hang with the primary? Does the second go to a different location (ex: primary to the bride getting ready and seond to the groom getting ready)? Is it different for each? Your thoughts on this?

Second Shooter rights to use photos:
This should color up the conversation. Is a second shooter position a portfolio building gig? Do you have any problems with the second using the images for their portfolio?.... on their blogs?... on their facebook?.... printed portfolios?... etc? Do you as the primary, offer the seond a model release? Thoughts?

Second Shooter contracts:
As a primary photographer, do you require the second sign a contract? If so, what does it point out? If not, why not?

Second Shooter interaction with B&G and guests/vendors, etc:
What are you expectations concerning the interactions with the second and the guests, b&g, vendors, etc? I would think this would be obvious, but so many things should be in life, then, when things turn out weird, you wish you had discussed it previously. So for the sake of everyone that wants to be a second, can you discuss your thoughts on this?

Second Shooter attire:
This would probably change depending on the formality of the event, but any thoughts on the clothing the second should wear?

General Thoughts:
Discuss anything else you can think of concerning this.

[MSooner]

Second Shooter interaction with B&G and guests/vendors, etc:
What are you expectations concerning the interactions with the second and the guests, b&g, vendors, etc? I would think this would be obvious, but so many things should be in life, then, when things turn out weird, you wish you had discussed it previously. So for the sake of everyone that wants to be a second, can you discuss your thoughts on this?

I had the opportunity to second shoot this weekend. I interacted with the B&G, guests, normally as far as answering questions and pointing them where to go. However, the lead set up all shots (except when I was shooting in an area by myself) and I directed the subject to look at the lead at all times when she was shooting.

Additionally, I was asked for a business card. I directed them to the lead shooter. I remember a photo.net post where a lead was very annoyed with a 2nd shooter offering their info, even when asked by a guest, and didn't want to cause any waves.

Second Shooter rights to use photos:
This should color up the conversation. Is a second shooter position a portfolio building gig? Do you have any problems with the second using the images for their portfolio?.... on their blogs?... on their facebook?.... printed portfolios?... etc? Do you as the primary, offer the seond a model release? Thoughts?

We discussed this from the beginning. I was not paid and it was purely a portfolio building experience. I provided the lead with 100 of my favorite shots for her to add to the B&G's collection as she saw fit and I can use the rest of the images as I please. If I blog them, I will specify that I was acting as a second shooter at the time. Overall, it was a great opportunity and I got some good shots. My only regret is that I was not able to get more of the bride & groom. Time & light was limited and the lead was shooting in a way that didn't allow for too many "side shots." Still worth it.

I'm not sure if I would have done it for free if I wasn't able to use my own shots. If it was a purely assisting position with a well-known photographer, sure, but I don't really like the idea of shooting and not have the rights to what I shoot if I am not being paid. However, I would never publicly describe the photos in a way that insinuated I was the lead shooter for the wedding (on a website, blog, etc.)

Second Shooter attire:
This would probably change depending on the formality of the event, but any thoughts on the clothing the second should wear?

There were two of us 2nd shooting. The lead asked us to wear all black, as she did.

Second Shooter responsibilities:
Does the second hang with the primary? Does the second go to a different location (ex: primary to the bride getting ready and seond to the groom getting ready)? Is it different for each? Your thoughts on this?

I think this depends on the lead. She directed the two of us (2 second shooters) to stay with her, get a certain angle, or cover a completely different room at different points of the night. I liked this, because it gave me some autonomy and every dang angle of the ceremony was covered. She usually took the "primary" spot for a shot and we would go off to the side, etc.

[todd_a]

Awesome! Thanks for replying, Marissa.

As for this...

Originally Posted by MSooner

Additionally, I was asked for a business card. I directed them to the lead shooter. I remember a photo.net post where a lead was very annoyed with a 2nd shooter offering their info, even when asked by a guest, and didn't want to cause any waves.

I heard a good idea somewhere... grab a few business cards from the primary before ya'll get started and if asked for a card, hand out theirs.

[Phisch]

Second Shooter definition:
How exactly do you define a second shooter? I've seen paid and non-paid opportunities. How is non-paid different from a Tag-Along position? What do you expect differently between the paid and unpaid positions?

It depends on the main, I guess :)

Speaking from experience: paid. Tag-along is unpaid. 2nd is required to know their camera and how to shoot a wedding and how to be out of each other's shots. Tag-along is there to learn and observe.

Second Shooter responsibilities:
Does the second hang with the primary? Does the second go to a different location (ex: primary to the bride getting ready and seond to the groom getting ready)? Is it different for each? Your thoughts on this?

As a 2nd, I stayed away from where the main was and looked for completely different shots and points of view. I've been assigned to get the groom getting-ready shots when the main was shooting the girls and then we switched. At the ceremony, if they were shooting the bride, I would be shooting the groom, etc.

Second Shooter rights to use photos:
This should color up the conversation. Is a second shooter position a portfolio building gig? Do you have any problems with the second using the images for their portfolio?.... on their blogs?... on their facebook?.... printed portfolios?... etc? Do you as the primary, offer the seond a model release? Thoughts?

I've only ever done this a few times and each time I've been allowed to use the images. Though I wasn't asked, I linked back to the main photographer. It should just go without saying. I've had a 2nd on a wedding and I expect that they get to use the images. I've never had to sign a model release. I think at weddings that's near impossible. Even if you only had 50 guests, that's 50 releases, potentially.

Second Shooter contracts:
As a primary photographer, do you require the second sign a contract? If so, what does it point out? If not, why not?

Yes to the first. Rights to use images for portfolio. Ummm...because it says so? Seriously I don't remember, I'd have to look it up.

Second Shooter interaction with B&G and guests/vendors, etc:
What are you expectations concerning the interactions with the second and the guests, b&g, vendors, etc? I would think this would be obvious, but so many things should be in life, then, when things turn out weird, you wish you had discussed it previously. So for the sake of everyone that wants to be a second, can you discuss your thoughts on this?

Someone I worked for shared this with me: How To Be A Good Second Shooter | Momtog Blog

I think it should just be habit to carry a few of the main photographer's business cards. I made a point of always asking for them before getting started.

It also helps to meet with and hang out with them for the first few minutes of the shoot if only to get a sense of how they talk to and relate to the clients. How casual are they when they speak? Do they do a lot of directing? If they don't say, it doesn't hurt at all to ask if there are definite "do nots" and how much "do" are you allowed? I recently worked with someone who was amazingly open and giving about information and how he worked with his clients and made a point of introducing me to everyone and asked that they accord me the same cooperation that they gave him. That was empowering and just plain nice (and a run-on sentence!).

Second Shooter attire:
This would probably change depending on the formality of the event, but any thoughts on the clothing the second should wear?

Ask the main. Black is the usual but on this MB lots seem to want suits or outfits of that level of formality. But also from this MB we learn a second set of pants is helpful! Also, shoes that don't squeak help.

General Thoughts:
Discuss anything else you can think of concerning this.

Don't be afraid to help in simple ways. I was asked by someone if it were ok if they asked me to help with their stands. I thought that it was just part of the job, so of course I was but apparently they'd had issues with others in the past. Carry bags, water, whatever. It pays to be thoughtful. If they can set up and break down faster with your help, it's best for everyone.

At a job, I tried to shoot during the formals also. It quickly dawned on me that this was just confusing to the family, they didn't know who to look at even though I thought I was out of the way. So if the main would like you to shoot also, ask that they point out that eyes go on them always regardless of where you, the 2nd, are. Chances are, if things go quickly you can get a crack at the posed shots (though not always). Also, don't be too caught up in your own shooting not to help with the dress, remove specks, etc.

Somewhere recently I read that it's good manners to wait for the main to post their photos of the wedding first. It hadn't occurred to me before reading that.

Tell the main where you're going to be before you go and shoot something.

All I could think of for now :)

[bthompson]

Definition: Somebody who is shooting at the wedding who's shots may be used in the final product. To me a tagalong is more like an assistant who can shoot if they want but their shots really don't matter.

Responsibilities: Do what the Primary would like you to do. Try and capture what they are NOT capturing.

Rights to use: I have no problem with them using in their portfolio. I do have a problem if they want to pass it off as if they were primary. I also prefer they not use the bride and groom's names. And yes, I ask they do not blog or post anything before I do. Actually Jasmine Star brought up something I hadn't thought about.. that she edits the second's photos and let's them have those so that the bride doesn't go to their blog and see a shot Jasmine didn't give her and then want it!

Contracts: I have.. I need to make sure I do it more often. After the horrible experience with a TPF member a few years ago I was like.. CONTRACT!

Interaction: They should not sell themselves. They should be functioning under your umbrella! They should take your lead on how to behave.

Attire: They should wear something similar to what you wear. For me, normally black slacks and a dark blouse/sweater.

[todd_a]

Thanks Mercedes! That was an awesome huge amount of info.

Good point about not posting until after the primary does. And also about being a distraction when shooting during the formals.

[WarrenG]

Second Shooter definition:
How exactly do you define a second shooter? I've seen paid and non-paid opportunities. How is non-paid different from a Tag-Along position? What do you expect differently between the paid and unpaid positions?

Shooters are paid, Period! (Unless it is a benefit or charity event and other arrangements have been worked out), Assistants are paid, Period!
A "Tag-A-Long" is a learning opportunity, but he / she is expected to "get their hands dirty" so to speak (E.g. - Carry a light, gear, etc). You are there to learn, but that does not always mean you are actually "shooting".

Second Shooter responsibilities:
Does the second hang with the primary? Does the second go to a different location (ex: primary to the bride getting ready and seond to the groom getting ready)? Is it different for each? Your thoughts on this?

The second shooters I use are excellent photographers on their own. With that said, they understand the expectation and the assignment specific to the wedding or event they are shooting with me. A good second knows to cover the images the prime cannot, rather than fighting to get their own copies of the images the prime is setting up. The seconds that I hire are not worried about getting images for their portfolio. Now on the other hand, there are times when I will let the assistant shoot at the reception if there is not much going on for them.

Second Shooter rights to use photos:
This should color up the conversation. Is a second shooter position a portfolio building gig? Do you have any problems with the second using the images for their portfolio?.... on their blogs?... on their facebook?.... printed portfolios?... etc? Do you as the primary, offer the seond a model release? Thoughts?

See my comment above. I am ok with them using some of the images they create assuming there is a watermark on the image that reads something to the effect of "Image for Gold Imagery" or "Imagen taken for www.goldimagery.com". Typically my second shooters do not need much for their portfolio, but then I also have very good relationships with the seconds I shoot with so we can figure out whatever we need to. If it was an assistant or tag-along they would not be allowed to use anything that the prime or second set up in their portfolio. My summer interns do use the images for their grades, but they are watermarked as previously mentioned.

Second Shooter contracts:
As a primary photographer, do you require the second sign a contract? If so, what does it point out? If not, why not?

Yes, one agreement that covers the relationship, and then they get an assignment confirmation form for each job they shoot. This tells them how much they are being paid, when, how, and if they can use the images, etc.

Second Shooter interaction with B&G and guests/vendors, etc:
What are you expectations concerning the interactions with the second and the guests, b&g, vendors, etc? I would think this would be obvious, but so many things should be in life, then, when things turn out weird, you wish you had discussed it previously. So for the sake of everyone that wants to be a second, can you discuss your thoughts on this?

Rule number 1 - Always conduct yourself in the best interests of the clients. Outside of this, you are a representitive of my company so conduct yourself as such. Most of all this is discussed way in advance of ever working with someone "the day of" or something like that, as well within the assignment confirmation.

Second Shooter attire:
This would probably change depending on the formality of the event, but any thoughts on the clothing the second should wear?

Attire for each specific event is discussed in the "Assignment Confirmation" or in advance of the event via phone, email, etc for those I work with quite often. Since the attire requirements vary by event, it is imperative that they are on the same page. If we were shooting a casual wedding by the lake I would not want the second shooter in formal evening attire

General Thoughts:

No one should ever "NEED" a tag-a-long!

It is insanity to hire different people at the last minute to shoot with you unless an emergency. I would be so worried about what they were doing, it would take away from my primary job. I can honestly say I never worry about what my seconds are doing, and, I would second shoot for any of them in a heartbeat. I have the utmost respect for them

[todd_a]

Thanks Brandi!!

Originally Posted by bthompson

Definition: Somebody who is shooting at the wedding who's shots may be used in the final product. To me a tagalong is more like an assistant who can shoot if they want but their shots really don't matter.

Responsibilities: Do what the Primary would like you to do. Try and capture what they are NOT capturing.

That is more the definition I was thinking about myself. And responsibility also, though I think I have heard of some primaries wanting to have the second right there with them all the time grabbing different angles of the same shots. Doubling up on things like Bride getting ready, then doubling up on groom getting ready. I guess is it preference and trust in the second's abilities to work on their own.

Rights to use: I have no problem with them using in their portfolio. I do have a problem if they want to pass it off as if they were primary. I also prefer they not use the bride and groom's names. And yes, I ask they do not blog or post anything before I do. Actually Jasmine Star brought up something I hadn't thought about.. that she edits the second's photos and let's them have those so that the bride doesn't go to their blog and see a shot Jasmine didn't give her and then want it!

Was that something Jasmine said last weekend? I missed that. I do remember hearing her say something about making sure that any shots that the second got that they were planning to post somewhere, to make sure sho got those so the B&G would not see it later and wonder why it was not included in theirs.

Contracts: I have.. I need to make sure I do it more often. After the horrible experience with a TPF member a few years ago I was like.. CONTRACT!

That sounds interesting. Might like to hear what happened there at some point.

Interaction: They should not sell themselves. They should be functioning under your umbrella! They should take your lead on how to behave.

I would have hoped this was obvious, but I wanted to get it pointed out for sure because you have to know this must go on with some people.

Attire: They should wear something similar to what you wear. For me, normally black slacks and a dark blouse/sweater.

Again, something to have discussed prior to the wedding day, hopefully.

[todd_a]

Thanks for the reply Warren. It sounds like in your case that you rely on a hand full of second shooters that you have used in the past and are very comfortable with. I can see how this would lead to a lot less misunderstandings about all the questions above. Plus you seem to have a cood second shooter contract worked out that spells everything out very well. Cool!

I like your thoughts on "You should never NEED a tag-along. Tag-along should be more of an observer/educational position who should help out as needed in return for the education they are receiving, but should not really be counted on to take charge of anything or be responsible for anything. I assume where you are going with that would be when you NEED someone, you should be looking for a backup with experience more than an unpaid observer?

[Tom]

Second Shooter definition:
How exactly do you define a second shooter? I've seen paid and non-paid opportunities. How is non-paid different from a Tag-Along position? What do you expect differently between the paid and unpaid positions?

Second shooters are paid positions. Assistants are paid positions. I do not have tagalongs.

Second Shooter responsibilities:
Does the second hang with the primary? Does the second go to a different location (ex: primary to the bride getting ready and seond to the groom getting ready)? Is it different for each? Your thoughts on this?

What they are responsible for depends on the primary. Generally, I will shoot the girls getting ready and the second will shoot the guys getting ready.
When I am shooting portraits, they are responsible for candids. They are responsible for getting detail shots. I generally have them shoot the first dance/cake/etc wide, while I shoot tight. My seconds are always capable of covering a wedding by themselves.

Second Shooter rights to use photos:
This should color up the conversation. Is a second shooter position a portfolio building gig? Do you have any problems with the second using the images for their portfolio?.... on their blogs?... on their facebook?.... printed portfolios?... etc? Do you as the primary, offer the seond a model release? Thoughts?

They can blog the pictures, but they have to say that they shot them for me as a second and link to my website. They cannot use them for their portfolio.

Second Shooter contracts:
As a primary photographer, do you require the second sign a contract? If so, what does it point out? If not, why not?

Yes. It is roughly based on John Mirales' Photographer toolkit contracts.
Photographer's Tool Kit | Wedding, Portrait and Associate Photography Contracts

Second Shooter interaction with B&G and guests/vendors, etc:
What are you expectations concerning the interactions with the second and the guests, b&g, vendors, etc? I would think this would be obvious, but so many things should be in life, then, when things turn out weird, you wish you had discussed it previously. So for the sake of everyone that wants to be a second, can you discuss your thoughts on this?

Seconds are not to promote themselves to the vendors or guests. All inquires go to the studio and they will have my business cards available. They should be friendly and personable. If there is any kind of issue or complaint, I'm to be told immediately.

Second Shooter attire:
This would probably change depending on the formality of the event, but any thoughts on the clothing the second should wear?

Depends on the event. I generally wear navy. As long as they look professional, I don't really care what color they wear. I avoid black, and tend to wear stylish clothes. I also have backups for everything I am wearing.

[todd_a]

Awesome! Thanks Thomas! And thanks for the link to the contracts. They look like a pretty inexpensive way to get a solid foundation to build on.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by todd_a

I like your thoughts on "You should never NEED a tag-along. Tag-along should be more of an observer/educational position who should help out as needed in return for the education they are receiving, but should not really be counted on to take charge of anything or be responsible for anything. I assume where you are going with that would be when you NEED someone, you should be looking for a backup with experience more than an unpaid observer?

Yes, but also that I see a lot of posts that state "Tag-Along Needed" for such and such date. I just struggle to grasp why anyone would NEED a tag-along unless they wanted to make it appear they had 2 people on-site.

[LauraM]

Love this! I was the other secondary shooter at the wedding Marissa is referring to and I second everything Marissa said. I was asked about a business card, I was asked for my website and if I do family portraits, and I was complimented on how fun it was to shoot with me, and in all situations, I referred them to the first shooter. When they asked for my website, I gave them the primary's info. When they said it was fun to work with me, I thanked them, said that I was learning from the best, and again referred them to the primary.

This was her gig, and she had worked for it, not me, and I didn't want anything to come off as it was me providing this service.

Wear a lens that compliments theirs. She was using a 11-16 and a 24-70, so I used a 70-200 to get close ups. I got shots that she couldn't have using her lens. Also, be creative, and anticipate moments. The lead has so much to cover that they may not always have the luxury of a creative shot. So after you've got some shots of what you need, get some creative ones. Another thing would be to pay attention to what is going on around you, anticipate moments. If someone is having a good time, anticipate if they are going to laugh... laughter pics are great. If they're doing the speeches at the reception, there might be tears... so have a zoom handy so you can get in on that. Emotions tell the story of the day!

Anywho... I could go on and on but I'm sure other people have more valuable info to offer. :)

[todd_a]

Thanks Laura! That was some great input. And if you feel the need to go on and on some more, PLEASE DO!! Insight into a place that some have never been is great info if you are in that position. It would be greatly appreciated!

Originally Posted by LauraM

Love this! I was the other secondary shooter at the wedding Marissa is referring to and I second everything Marissa said. I was asked about a business card, I was asked for my website and if I do family portraits, and I was complimented on how fun it was to shoot with me, and in all situations, I referred them to the first shooter. When they asked for my website, I gave them the primary's info. When they said it was fun to work with me, I thanked them, said that I was learning from the best, and again referred them to the primary.

This was her gig, and she had worked for it, not me, and I didn't want anything to come off as it was me providing this service.

Wear a lens that compliments theirs. She was using a 11-16 and a 24-70, so I used a 70-200 to get close ups. I got shots that she couldn't have using her lens. Also, be creative, and anticipate moments. The lead has so much to cover that they may not always have the luxury of a creative shot. So after you've got some shots of what you need, get some creative ones. Another thing would be to pay attention to what is going on around you, anticipate moments. If someone is having a good time, anticipate if they are going to laugh... laughter pics are great. If they're doing the speeches at the reception, there might be tears... so have a zoom handy so you can get in on that. Emotions tell the story of the day!

Anywho... I could go on and on but I'm sure other people have more valuable info to offer. :)