Hypothetical ethical question...what would u do?

[BWDPhoto]

Okay, say you were hired to shoot a wedding for a couple. the bride pays your retainer via mail. she lives out of state, getting married locally. mom owns a nice b&b that a lot of weddings are held at. through your discussions over the phone, you decide to give a 'pro' discount to become the moms exclusive photog of choice when couples come check out her place. a win-win situation!

you try to touch base w/ bride several times the week of the wedding and can't get in touch with her until the day before. she still owes you some $$$. visit with her when you start your 8+ hour day with her. says mom will get a check to you. okay. no biggie there...you mention it several times during the day, still never nothing. you get busy. a week later, you have all of the wedding images of this former beauty queen and her handsome new hubby all ready, but of course, you won't release the proofs w/o payment. you call the bride. email the bride. call mom. email mom. NOTHING! a couple of months go by...you mail invoices still no payment.

then one day you're surfing the internet trying to find info for an event...you see a new local photogs website you've never heard of. being curious, you want to check it out, right? you do. up on the home screen pops YOUR bride and groom. you scroll through the galleries....there on this website are all of the pictures you took the time to set up, pose, get just right. if you were a client you'd think 'oh, she shot so and so's wedding' .....

you have a no competition clause in your contract....but.....

do you get mad? do you blame yourself for not banning this person w/ a camera (who you may have seen, but thought they were just an eager guest)...do you call the photog because this crosses some ethical line? do you chalk it up to experience and go on?

what would you do in this 'hypothetical' situation??

[Concisus Cognatus]

I'm not a pro photographer and I would not want to shoot weddings but that's just wrong, wrong, wrong.

Unless you specifically gave this woman rights to use photographs taken by you, then, she has opened herself up to a GREAT BIG OLD can of speak-to-my-lawyer(the public version of my thoughts) .

That's this novices opinion.

[123canon]

i would kick myself for not getting the $$$ up front and chalk it up to a learning experience.
when i don't have cash up front i "discourage" guests from using my set ups.

[Paulo]

Wow! I hope this truly is a hypothetical question and it didn't happen to you...

Originally Posted by BWDPhoto

...
[I]you try to touch base w/ bride several times the week of the wedding and can't get in touch with her until the day before. she still owes you some $$$. visit with her when you start your 8+ hour day with her. says mom will get a check to you. okay. no biggie there...you mention it several times during the day, still never nothing. you get busy. a week later, you have all of the wedding images of this former beauty queen and her handsome new hubby all ready, but of course, you won't release the proofs w/o payment. you call the bride. email the bride. call mom. email mom. NOTHING! a couple of months go by...you mail invoices still no payment.

I would probably:
Send one FINAL invoice via email and certified mail. Include respond by date or specify date images will no longer be available to client and copy of contract highlighting RETAINER paid is non-refundable. Keep a copy of final invoice letter for my records as well as the original contract. If still no reponse, I'd move on.

Originally Posted by BWDPhoto

...then one day you're surfing the internet trying to find info for an event...you see a new local photogs website you've never heard of. being curious, you want to check it out, right? you do. up on the home screen pops YOUR bride and groom. you scroll through the galleries....there on this website are all of the pictures you took the time to set up, pose, get just right. if you were a client you'd think 'oh, she shot so and so's wedding' .....

you have a no competition clause in your contract....but.....

do you get mad? do you blame yourself for not banning this person w/ a camera (who you may have seen, but thought they were just an eager guest)...do you call the photog because this crosses some ethical line? do you chalk it up to experience and go on?

I would probably:
If it was in Texas, I'd ask someone like Don Barnes or MyKey or CobyPhoto...for a good lawyer and see from them what my legal options are....

[CaptainTom]

Are there two questions here ?

The one about what to do when they don't pay. Don't give them any photos. But, they may have gotten them from the "other" photog who
shot over your shoulder without your permission. You could take them to small claims court and be expected to produce the photos.

The one about someone shooting over your shoulder and then posting the photos on their site. Confront the photographer and let them know that you know what they did, and let them know that you will do all in your power to make sure their ethical misconduct is known in the wedding community. I'd be violently pissed off !!

[jagphoto]

I know alot of people also mention letting the PPA know. Give them the other photographers name.

[boxofrocks]

So you had a contract? Read it and enforce it as written--no excuses. If she signed it, she has to live by it.

[ndsimm]

all of the above and IMMEDIATELY add a no compete clause in your contract!!!

[BWDPhoto]

There is a no compete clause in the contract.....i have a very good and clear contract. sadly this isn't so much a hypothetical as it is actual....just getting a feel for the waters here. I'm kicking myself repeatedly right now. I have NEVER not gotten payment in advance for a wedding. Made one very stupid exception this time because mom was very well connected, owns a wedding business herself, was guaranteed that i'd be the 'official' photographer for the location which was another huge win in and of itself! Why not bend the rules just a little for that kind of client....

[Concisus Cognatus]

Wendy, given the circumstance you've described, I think most photographers would have been just as susceptable to making that mistake. You did right. Unfortunately it was with someone of questionable moral business practices.

[BWDPhoto]

I had never even met this bride until the wedding day. She was living in Dallas at the time and getting married at her mom's place. I was blown away when I met "Miss Amarillo" who was gorgeous and was every photographers dream to photograph! The wedding was equally so. I was flexible in working with her because she was living out of state during our contract talks. Did things by mail and email and phone.
I think I will contact PPA - not that they can do anything, but good to get a few other opinions here. I'm sending a 'final payment notice' today via email and certified mail to both mom and bride (who signed the contract). I'm astounded that the other photog would do this and looking at her website, she is very new. All of the pictures are either of my wedding or the same couple of kids.
I've been burned in other situations, but never to this degree!

[boxofrocks]

Good luck, and keep us in the loop. I'd also keep calling--email will just be ignored, apparently. Maybe call from a different phone in case they are screening you via caller ID.

[Paulo]

Originally Posted by BWDPhoto

...Made one very stupid exception this time because mom was very well connected, owns a wedding business herself, was guaranteed that i'd be the 'official' photographer for the location which was another huge win in and of itself! Why not bend the rules just a little for that kind of client....

Don't be too hard on yourself. For me, I can see how I would be tempted to consider the same thing...but then I read or hear things like your situation again and reminds me why I keep relationships like this strictly by the book. Unless I see and agree to a contract that I'd be the 'official' photographer for a venue, it's just an empty promise. Wish things were like the old movies where people simply shook hands and a promise or agreement was upheld...

It's because of these situations that I've updated my contract to "payment in full" at the contract signing. I use to accept a retainer to secure a specific date and then send a balance due invoice with a payment date 2 weeks prior to the event. But I found many of my clients waiting until the last minute or trying to do it the day of or after the event.

[CobyPhoto]

You are right about kickin your self in the arse for not getting payment up front. I would have walked without the payment.

BUT...since you didn't, here is what I would do. As you have a good contract, I would send letters, certified, return receipt, to the Mom & Couple and the photographer with the Photos up on the site. I would request that the photographer remove the photos immediately, as per the contract and non-compete clause and request immediate payment (letter serves as final notice before legal action) from the Mom & Couple.

Word you letter so they get the impression you are going to take the to court, or pay a lawyer to write this letter for you and have him mail it. If your contract is good, you actually have grounds to sue both parties for the amount of the contract, and use of your pictures yo posed according to the non-compete clause.

HOWEVER, you will have to make the decision if you will benefit from this action or not. If you are established, and doing this as a full time income, I would sue. Set precedence and allow one client to walk all over you and word gets around..."She is easy!" If you sue and get your payment and the photos removed off of the site, it will probably be the last time you have to deal with idiots of this nature. (You can't convince me the MOB didn't premeditate this.)

If this is not your full time income, you may be best served to live and learn and not take action.

Exhaust all Non-court actions possible first, then sue, if you have to. If you have the contract and fulfilled it, chances are, it will go before a judge and the decision will be in your favor without much ado. If nothing else, it will affect that MOB credit wise, and in her own business and make her think twice before trying something of this nature again.

When you go into business for yourself, you have to be prepared to deal with issues of this nature and the reprecussions of doing it or not doing it. Talk to a lawyer, any lawyer. You don't need a specific lawyer, it is a basic contactual situation and any lawyer will be familiar with contractual law.

Best of Luck, sounds like this MOB is a piece of work!

CJ

[BWDPhoto]

just a quick fyi...talked to PPA just now...should this little situation ever occur to any of you...if another photographer (new/pro/semi-ameture) takes pictures at your event (either duplicating your concept idea or from a slightly different vantage point) you are in a gray area, but you can submit a 'professional' letter to the other photog stating that this practice is unprofessional, that you had sole and exclusive right (providing your contract says so) to the event and you (to your knowledge) are the only one with a signed model release and permission to publish or print images from the event. You can request that the other photog take images from their site because it appears that the photographer is competing for your business from this event. That practice is frowned upon by the PPA. The PPA will also send a letter to the other person urging them to use ethical and fair business practices and at least request them to remove the images from their site since they were not contracted to do so.