Wedding Packages - Love 'em or Leave 'em?

[HotHolly]

Okay, so we have been shooting primarly weddings for the last 12-months and we are either in an anemic market or I stink at pre-selling weddings...

I have been leaning toward doing more portrait photography (specifically children - our shots look more distinct - parents droul over them and have been spending over $1K per session). The main reason Im considering ditching weddings (or at least removing it as our area of emphasis), is that weddings have not been as luctratuive as the children's sessions.

Is that weird? A parent will buy every picutre I have of their kid five times over with an album, but some brides we've had dont buy anything.

I currently have out one wedding, where the mother of the bride hired us to just show up, and duped her own daughter (she hired us for a minimal amount and told her daughter she prepurchased her prints, albums - the works...and she didnt). The bride has no pics of her own wedding. I offered her a special arrangement (I'm a sucker) - even payments to get her to buy/ help her get images or albums, but they havent purchased ANYTHING. She only has paper proofs.

That senario has different characters, but it pretty much follows the same pattern. "We only want basic wedding coverage (proofs). We'll buy more later." And they usually don't. We use pictology for online proofing so the entire family can order. We even offer a discount period where they can purchase prints at 50% off. I still have a few weddings where that didnt make a difference.

Then there is a weird dynamic with this town in particular, that people do not book/ buy tikcets/ rent halls until the last second. It was written up in the paper, that every time some big name singer puts Abilene on their tour plans, it gets cancelled b/c of lack of pre-purchase ticket sales. People just show up at the event and buy tickets at the door. Its something unique (and annoying) to Abilene.

We have found this mind-set is passing over into wedding photography. They only want to pay for basic coverage, and they wait until the last possible second to book. Most do not want or seem to have any interest in packages (they say they will purchase al la carte after at a higher rate). All this is disclosed up front...they dont seem to care.

We offered wedding packages initially. No one wanted them. We have actually gotten several weddings b/c we make custom wedding packages. I have a wedding booked for each month of the next year, at this point.

I LOVE shooting weddings. I personally like the challenge of capturing evokative images on the fly...but the pay off has been too low.

So, I guess the question here is:

1. Is it weird to gross more on childrens sessions than on weddings?
2. Should we offer wedding packages (rather than custom create)?
3. Yea, I'm totally lost as to why a bride loves the images, but doesnt buy anything...?

I dont think I totally stink at sales...I have been doing well with children. So I was thinking it has to be something else.

I'm open to suggestions. I think we need a restructure, but I'm not sure what to do given the market we are in. (We do travel and dont have these issues elsewhere - its Abilene). And most everywhere else, people request packages. They want to buy it upfront. So what do I do here, where they dont?

I'm looking for some ideas - I know there isnt a magic bullet.

Do you think that this the result of not having packages?

Those of you that are doing well with weddings - do you strictly stick to packages? Or do you tweak them as needed?

Edit: Also - what demographic is purchasing your wedding packages? (Working Class, Middle Class, Upper Middle Class, or Upper Class)

[bondarnes]

Let's just totally rethink this situation.

Most weddings take place on a Saturday. How many children's sessions could you do an a Saturday? Let's say three @ $1,000.= $3,000. And you are done before 5:00 p.m. So your basic wedding coverage should start at $ 3,000. and that would include x hours of coverage and a custom designed album of xx pages. Or would you rather give up $3,000. in childrens photography to work your butt off from 3:00 til midnight for less money?

Most photographers come into this business photographing wedding and after a few years they start doing portraits and a few years later they give up weddings because they can make more money on a Saturday in less time and with way less stress doing portraits. Tomorrow night I will photograph a company Christmas party. I will set up at 5:30 guests start arriving at 6:30 dinner is at 8:00 and I'm done. Total about $ 1,800. Would I turn down a $ 1,500. wedding to do this? Yes I did.

I wish you well.

[Mark McCall]

Holly,
No it's not crazy to gross more on portraiture than weddings. Most photographers just don't realize they already do. And that's coming from somebody who charges more than anybody else in my market.

I think you answered your own question about brides not buying....its the proofs.

A wise old photographer once told me..."people don't eat when they aren't hungry".
By giving proofs, your "feeding" them, satisfying that need for images. The longer those proofs are in their possession, the less valuable they seem to the client.
(think of it as going to an all-you-can-eat buffet....after a few trips, the food doesn't look so good anymore).

Families don't buy the album and prints for the book after the wedding....there's no money left. Get everything up front.

Yes, we go by packages.
Packages are hourly based.....2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 hours.
$3,500-4,000 average.
All inclusive....images, album, no proofs, all turn key.

[Breezy]

I am learning so much :D
thanks guys

[Michelle Allmon]

1. Is it weird to gross more on childrens sessions than on weddings?

I say nope. But I keep dreaming...

2. Should we offer wedding packages (rather than custom create)?

I am thinking yes... because i am having the same problem. So let's go ahead and do that...

3. Yea, I'm totally lost as to why a bride loves the images, but doesnt buy anything...?

I think Mark is right. And I think even having them online to share is enough for some people. I don't get it, either. I'm glad you posted this, I have put a lot of thought into it myself.

[HotHolly]

Thanks for your suggestions. Im really surprised no one else is really opionated on this...I would have thought a few of you were die hard package people. Maybe not?

Well, off to shoot Christmas photos.

;o)

[bfphoto]

Holly, I think you can do it either way, but like Mark said, got ALL your money up front. Any re orders after the wedding should be gravy. BTW I love your wedding photos and would sure miss seeing them. You just have way too much tallent.

[HeatherLou]

I have 3 packages, granted, Ive only done 3 weddings, and my demographic and situations is a lot different than yours, but the people I have talked to loved the fact that they dont have to think about it. I guess thats why anyway, I am about to start working albums into the mix, and I offer a CD with copyright too. Let them make there own prints LOL!

[KeepsakeGirl]

I"m rethinking my package strategy to ADD more but CHARGE more and make the items in the packages soooo darn irresistable that they'll WANT it all. I no longer offer print proofs...everything is done online and they chose what they want online.


And now i'm going to start offering a 1 month expiration date on the amount of time they can place an order from the date I post the images. Far too many times they call me 1 yr later and want me to re-upload all the images again to make a $45 order..NOT worth my time. I'm going to also place cards & login into at the sign-in table so the guests can take them and I don't have to bother emailing people. if they view the event, they will see the Last Date to Order blinking at them and know its crunch time. If the couple asks for me to repost them there will be a $50 fee to dig everything up and redo it. Time = Money and I'm working far too hard and not making enough.

[bondarnes]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

Holly,

Families don't buy the album and prints for the book after the wedding....there's no money left. Get everything up front. .

Hey Mark and all. Here is an idea I got from Mitche Graf.

The Portrait Credit program

One frustrating thing about wedding photography is having to depend on post-wedding sales orders. We speculate that the couple's parents, grandparents, bridal party, assorted aunts and uncles and a few close friends will order prints, but there's no guarantee how much they'll spend.
When we book the wedding, we collect the names and address of parents, grandparents, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, best friends, bridesmaids and groomsmen, and anyone else who's special to the couple. We tell the clients that 30 days before the wedding, we'll send everyone on the list a mailer that explains our three-for-two Portrait Credit special, a program that affords substantial savings on prints. You'll be amazed how many names and addresses your clients come up with when they're going to be heroes in the eyes of their families and friends.
With the Portrait Credit program, for every $2 paid before the wedding, the customer receives $3 worth of credit toward any product we offer after the big day. Whether they plan to purchase a parent album, a wall portrait, or a series of gift portraits, they'll be delighted to take advantage of your money-saving offer. For example: $1,000 paid buys $1,500 of Portrait Credit; $500 paid buys $750 of Portrait Credit; $100 paid buys $150 of Portrait Credit. We have yet to sell the "whopper" $1,000, but listing it makes the other investment tiers look even better to our clients. I must caution you, if you are selling 8x10s for $20 each, this program won't work for you. There must be a profit margin built into your pricing structure or this promotion will eat you alive.
The mailer we send out informs the recipients that they, have two weeks to respond to the offer by filling out the included order form and returning it to the studio along with the payment. The cover letter in the mailer is an opportunity to introduce yourself to potential clients and let them know you look forward to meeting them on the wedding day.
When an order comes in, we send the customer a professional-looking gift certificate with the credit amount written in. On the day of the wedding, I have the benefit of knowing exactly what the couple, family, and friends have ordered, so I can "create" those products throughout the day.

[HotHolly]

Interesting...

Thanks Don for that long post. We have started trying to presell print credits (similar to what you mentioned) however, most people dont want to think about it until after they see the prints. At least that is the responce so far. As for getting them to willingly give out names and addresses, that has been difficult. I have 2 weddings next year that I think will jump at the presale chance. One couple noticed that we were better and cheaper than other photogs they were looking at and snatched us up like they found a full wallet on the side of the highway. So I guess we should have charged more...oops.

Heather - I think in the area we live in, selling the negs is the kiss of death - unless you charge enough for them to cover any print sales you'd expect to have. Maybe sell the negs with your middle package? Just a thought - by the way - like your website updates. (Those of you that disagree with me - thats ok - this is just my opnion for this area)

Also, I dont know if this is happening in Brownwood, but in Abilene it is getting harder and harder to take pro images to walmart for printing (plus they look awful! Orange skin tones occur on ALL the intown machines). WalMart is worried about legal junk, and I'm guessing, the PPA. If it looks pro, they dont want to print it. You have to find the right person, usually a manager. The kids that have been yelled at for printing something pro without the release NEVER do it again, release or not. They just say NO. Which means difficult customers...when this happens to them. If we need something fast, we run there and use it as a proof. The colors are really merky. We actaully SHOW that as a reason NOT to run off the images themselves with WalMart and Lab images side-by-side. I think people are also asking for the negs for safe keeping, which is a different story.

Anyway, I totally agree with all of you that post-wedding sales arent the way to go.

The main issue seems to be that the demograhic that has been hiring us just wants to hire a monkey with a camera. They arent interested in anything else.

They just want to know the day is covered and they have somebody to sue if they dont get htier photos. Other than that, they think anyone can do it. Hopefully, my images are on par with a monkey (or better) when they see the proofs but the time has passed for realizing that's worth paying for, and so has the money.

I guess the short version -

Nobody has mentioned their demographic. That has to play a part in this. All of our customers last year were Working Class. Some of our customers booked for next year are Upper-Middle Class. From our sales, the working class (generally speaking) just want images. The Upper Middle is purchaing pacakges. Is that happeneing for anyone else?

Also, I have 2-3 weddings sitting around that past their discount time frame. They did not purchase ANYTHING. We offer a discount for 7 days after the event is posted online. All 3 weddings let the discount lapse. 1 Wedding had several relatives purchase, but the B&G havent bought anything. I sent out an email on Dec 1 that new prices take effect on Jan 1 to try and motivate people - but still got nothing. I didnt want to give up - any suggestions? Should I let them pay out a package? Or should I still do al la carte? I was anticipating having a little more $$$ this holiday and have 3 duds here. How can I revive the duds? Any and ALL suggestions have merit! Speak up!

[HeatherLou]

Thanks for looking at the site Holly, I still have lots of changes to make, and things to figure out, but Im on the right path now. As for Brownwood, Im very much in the same boat. The weddings I have done were for working class, and now Im starting to get known in the middle class too. (Thanks to having some coworkers and family that have lived here forever) I'm finding that the people that Im talking to now, like the no muss no fuss thing. So I think I will do a combo of both. I will offer my packages with some prints included, but then offer the option to buy prints on the web. (Providing I can figure out how to do that) I took the CD OFF ALL my packages, and am now charging 99$ for it. Do you think that is still too low for this area? Anyhoo, as for the WalMart thing, yes it is now very difficult to get them printed there. What I did though was I used all there machings for prints of the same pic. Picked the best machine in that store and I tell everyone to use that. The Fugi machine does great in this store! I also introduced myself to the manager there and to a few of the employees. I explained what I was doing, and that if they got a CD from me, that it was okay and that I would give each customer a release. I also asked them to ONLY print from the CD. So far, I have not had an issue with them, or any customer that uses them.

Oh BTW, I had a guest at the hotel, knows Im a photog and wanted me to do his family pics. I said if he came down here Great, but I refered him to you if he didnt want to travel with his family down here. Dont know if anything will come of it, but if it does, let me know.

[HotHolly]

Originally Posted by Heatherlou

Oh BTW, I had a guest at the hotel, knows Im a photog and wanted me to do his family pics. I said if he came down here Great, but I refered him to you if he didnt want to travel with his family down here. Dont know if anything will come of it, but if it does, let me know.

Wow! Thanks!

We are getting ready to go into a new studio and doing prep work now. So things are nuts and I could totally use any extra work! Our sign is gonna cost $6K! Thats nuts! Anyway, poking around after demographic trends will help with price points and our current wedding structure. Hence the thread...

:o)

[Bartman01]

Not a wedding photographer, but here is my 2 cents (based mainly on my own wedding). I would have to say our demographic at the time was middle class. Pretty much all of our savings went in to the event in addition to any assistance from the families. We pre-purchased a wedding package, and wouldn't have done it any other way. The families also purchased individual prints or packages of their own. We felt comfortable buying a package up front, we (or I should really say 'she') hired the photographer based on their portfolio/cost. And had them to do the engagement pictures first.

Thinking about it from a business perspective this is how I would approach it:
I would only agree to do a wedding based on an up-front purchase. The minimum package price would be just enough to cover my opportunity cost and expenses. I would assume that if they are not willing/able to pay up front then they are not willing/able to give you enough business afterward to make it worth your time/effort. If they have the money to begin with, they wouldn't bat an eye at paying for the package. If they don't have the money, then they certainly won't after all of the unexpected wedding costs get through with them. Don't expect additional print sales beyond the package. If you get them, great - but don't cut the price assuming they will come. To many people are 'happy' with bad prints from bad scans if it saves them a few bucks.

As to negative and/or high-res digital sales: I would handle these one of two ways (or possibly both).
1) Include them as part of a 'top tier' package priced assuming that you will never sell another copy again. While you can't expect additional sales from any single job, you should be able to figure out your 'normal' after-package sales and base the pricing off this.
2) Have a policy that after X number of years you will sell them. This gives you time to time to make additional money on print orders, gives the bride/groom confidence that their images will not end up in some dust-bin in 10 years, and gives you one final revenue opportunity after the normal reprint phase is over. Once nice thing here about digital (over negatives) is that you can keep perfect copies and still sell prints.