Getting the correct exposure for wedding dresses

[AncientPC]

I shot a fashion show recently and most of my pictures came out fine. However I was losing the detail in some of the dresses and I've attached two of them below.

For the yellow dress I was using center weighted and -1/3 EV. Should I have upped EV back to 0?

For the bridal gown portion of the show I placed EV back to 0 (still using center weighted), should I have bumped it up another 2/3 stop?

Regarding wedding dresses (at weddings) in general, I should spot meter and lock exposure off dress, lock focus on face, use a large enough DOF, and use +1/3 to +1 EV. Is that correct?

Settings: Nikon D200, 1/250, f/1.4, ISO 400, center weighted.

[AncientPC]

I've attached a photo that my roommate took of the same subject.

Settings: Rebel XT, 1/320, f/2.8, 0 EV.

[ngoduyviet]

All the EV numbers give me a headache. Try to keep things simple, I can see that you shot manual without an on board flash and your D200 could do spot. Why not just spot meter the dress and shoot away if you were concerned about blowing it out?

For weddings, it's not a set in stone answer. To simplify matter, if you are only concerned with the dress, then look at their complexion & dress. If the two contradict, (i.e. white vs black) then you need to compromise and decide which is more important, the dress or the face then expose for one or the other, or somewhere in the middle so you can bring back both in post processing.

[Wil_Bloodworth]

William,

You'll notice that there are light spots on the floor... so you can't use a single exposure setting for the entire length of the runway floor and expect to get the same results. If it were evenly lit, you could. But, in this case, it may be best to use spot metering and meter directly on the dress.

Also, don't compare your roomate's photo to yours unless he is shooting right next to you. It appears that he is a long way from where you are... meaning that the light is coming from a different direction with different intensity.

Hope that helps.

- Wil

[AllenAyres]

In general, I spot meter off the side of the face that's in the light I am wanting @ +1/3. Then unless the lighting is changing, I don't see a reason to change this from moment to moment. If lighting is changing quickly, you're gonna have a difficult time chasing exposure regardless, you might stick with 0 or +1/3 and use shutter priority, taking several images and choosing the best later. :)

[Wil_Bloodworth]

Originally Posted by AllenAyres

In general, I spot meter off the side of the face that's in the light I am wanting @ +1/3. Then unless the lighting is changing, I don't see a reason to change this from moment to moment. If lighting is changing quickly, you're gonna have a difficult time chasing exposure regardless, you might stick with 0 or +1/3 and use shutter priority, taking several images and choosing the best later. :)

You can't do that for a fashion runway show. You can't get anywhere near the models and if there are spot lights hitting various places on the runway, the models will be in drastically different light every couple of seconds. That's why you have to spot meter on the dress (if that's where you want the detail).

If you're dealing with just white dresses, you can dial up the exposure a bit. If you're dealing with just black/dark dresses, you can dial down the exposure a bit. If you're dealing with a mixture of varying tonalities of dresses... get good at adjusting your exposure compensation or just shoot an approximation of the exposure using center metering and then adjust in post.

That's how I'd do it anyway.

- Wil

[MicWayWal]

William,

Let get down to some exposure basics here so that you can use the knowledge in all situations not just this one particular. Is that a school bell I hear?

Lets assume you are spot metering and the light is constantly changing, like fashion shows and weddings. You want to work fast so you want auto exposure to work for you.
LAW: When you meter an object, the camera assumes the object is 18% gray. It will render an exposure based on the reflectance of 18% and give you an exposure to produce 18% gray. (Why 18%? That is another discussion thread)

But a white wedding dress is NOT gray. What do you do? Remember the camera is trying to produce gray. The exposure measurement will be 1½ - 2 stops too dark. That is about the difference between white and gray. Use the overcompensation adjustment and over expose the dress 1½ - 2 stops based on your taste and the lighting. Now it will be white.

Just the opposite for black dresses or tuxes. The exposure will be 1½ - 2 stops too light. Because, yes, that is the difference between black and gray. So use the under compensation adjustment and under expose the black 1½ - 2 stops. Now you have black.

Easy Right? But what about the colors between white & gray, gray & black. This is where you have to observe and think. Yes Virginia you have to think. Determine which side the object will fall on, the white side or black side based on how much light the object is reflecting. If a yellow dress is coming I would over expose about 1 stop. If a darker green is coming I would under expose by 1 stop. If I am measuring white skin it is about 1 stop lighter than gray. Black skin is about 1 stop darker than gray.

That is all there is too it. Now there are going to be some Yahoos come along and say to shoot in RAW and adjust it later. Well you can do that if you want. But you will be making some wild adjustments as a result. The color shifts and noise created by those adjustments, along with the time to do it will make it a real pain. Get it right or a close as possible and save all of that hassle and use the RAW adjustments for tweaking your work.

The nice thing about auto-flash these days is the same thing works for flash as well. Have fun.
Class dismissed.

MicWayWal added 23 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...Double Post Merged Below

William,

For those staying after class, I did a little math to illustrate your problem. I am assuming same lighting same timing.

You were shooting at ISO 400; 1/250 at f/1.4
Your friend was shooting at ISO 800; 1/320 at f/2.8
(for your friend to produce the same results at ISO 400 his settings could have been 1/250 at 2.4 . That is an adjustment of one stop from ISO 800 to 400)

Since I make the adjustments so you would have the same shutter speed the only difference now is the aperture.
You are metering and producing objects at f/1.4 and he is producing them at f/2.4. You are exactly 1½ stops brighter than his. 1.4 > 2.0 is one stop, 2.0 >2.4 is ½ stop. Based on what I can see it looks like you are very close to being right. He is about 1 stop under exposed and you look like you are about ½ stop over exposed.

There is detail in your image on the whites. They are soft and look like they may be blurred from moving but there is detail there. They are not totally blown out.
Now get outside and go to recess.

[AncientPC]

Michael,

Thank you for the detailed response. Generally I have heard two explanations of exposure control:
1) If the highlights are clipped, decrease exposure.
2) If the scene is mostly white, increase exposure to match since the camera is metering for 18% gray.

After your post and a little bit more research, I am leaning towards explanation #2 despite how conter-intuitive it may initially seem.

The catch is that it is easier to recover detail from an underexposed photo than it is to recover clipped highlights.

I think I should have spot metered off the dress and increased exposure at least 1 stop. I'll need to experiment a bit more to confirm this line of reasoning.

[AncientPC]

Ignoring my roommate's underexposed shot, I took a look at the histogram and the bridal dress does look in fact exposed correctly. Maybe the problem is I need to recognize clipping better.

[MicWayWal]

Originally Posted by AncientPC

Michael,

Thank you for the detailed response. Generally I have heard two explanations of exposure control:
1) If the highlights are clipped, decrease exposure.
2) If the scene is mostly white, increase exposure to match since the camera is metering for 18% gray.

After your post and a little bit more research, I am leaning towards explanation #2 despite how conter-intuitive it may initially seem.

The catch is that it is easier to recover detail from an underexposed photo than it is to recover clipped highlights.

I think I should have spot metered off the dress and increased exposure at least 1 stop. I'll need to experiment a bit more to confirm this line of reasoning.

1. Both of the numbered statements are simplified explanations but they are correct providing you know what decrease and increase exposure means.

2. I disagree with two things:
a. #2 phrase "scene is mostly white," it should be the object on which you are trying to get a correct exposure on is mostly white.
b. "It easier to recover detail from an underexposed photo." Maybe, if it is not too far off to correct AND you are willing to accept the color shifts and noise that come with the adjustments.

[HotHolly]

Originally Posted by MicWayWal

1. Both of the numbered statements are simplified explanations but they are correct providing you know what decrease and increase exposure means.

2. I disagree with two things:
a. #2 phrase "scene is mostly white," it should be the object on which you are trying to get a correct exposure on is mostly white.
b. "It easier to recover detail from an underexposed photo." Maybe, if it is not too far off to correct AND you are willing to accept the color shifts and noise that come with the adjustments.

well said.

#2b. - good point & well said.

many people dont realize what they are forfeiting when they underexpose to correct later. a proper exposure is way better than trying to fix it in PP imho.

ironic that i'd say that, huh? i'd been underexposing on purpose for a while. i recently stopped. short version - skin looks so much better and i can still pull off the dramatic lighting. wahoo!

[gtakacs]

Spot meter off white dress with +2EV compensation. Easy breezy.

[texxter]

Discussing EV adjustments to deal with deviations from 18% gray...

The nice thing about auto-flash these days is the same thing works for flash as well.

This is true and it's a bit more complex. Camera EV is a global adjustment that applies to flash as well. If you dial +1.7 EV with the flash in TTL you'll get the flash to produce 1.7 EV more power. This is easy to understand.

The problem is that this may not be what you want. Say you are doing a portrait with flash and you want to have a saturated, dramatic blue sky, so you dial -1.7 EV to underexpose, but now the flash the underexposing your main subject as well, which is not cool. Now you have to go to flash EV and compensate for the camera EV. To make things more interesting dialing +1.7 EV on the flash may not be exactly what you works, as it depends on the reflectance of the subject, as Michael so clearly explained above.

Just wanted to make this observation because the price of using TTL and retain control is to understand how camera EV and flash EV work together.